The music functions as a sonic landscape—an equal to dialogue. Sound is the context. Video version. (Play it in the background like a lyric video.)
New York is a place where part of my family started. I was always visiting. I attended some school and eventually would work there. The last time I spent a few weeks here was in between surfing in Oaxaca and living in Mexico City. This brings us to how I was in town for Pride and made these photographs.
Paul: When I came to town, I had no idea it was Pride. That worked out to my benefit. What was your experience with Pride this year?
Carl: That was my first Pride in New York. So it was exciting. I had a lot of fun, and I think the main Pride week was a pretty easy week for me. I had been to Folsom East the last week. When we met up, I was actually wearing the shirt that I got there for Folsom Street East. I was still in a euphoric state of having a really good time and just enjoying being in New York for my first Pride. Yeah, it was quite an exciting week and time.
Paul: I was able to catch up with friends; I went to jock night at the Eagle. That was a lot of things, but in short I would say amazing. I’ve never seen anything like that anywhere in the world. Do you ever go to Nowhere?
Carl: Yeah, I have been there once or twice.
Paul: I liked the vibe, and the music was fun. Right after we met up, I went to the Urban Bear party at Brass Monkey. It was so packed, three levels of men. I feel like everything in New York is; it’s not just one bar. It’s a bar on top of a bar on top of a bar, and the rain came, so everyone was wet, but no one cared.
It was just so nice to see so many queer people celebrating our history and just existing. That’s something I haven’t seen. I don’t think I ever saw that in LA. It’s very inspiring. You don’t get to see that in most cities in the US.
Carl: Right.
Paul: Talking about the photo on the street, it’s a portrait where the background is blurry. I think the idea of taking some photos outside and then moving inside. I knew that would be a good way to warm up. I found you were natural and comfortable with me, and then the city just added another character, even though it’s all blurry in the background.
Paul: What were your thoughts when we were just walking around and that was our first time meeting?
Carl: Yeah, that’s true. We had been chatting for a while, so that was exciting to be finally meeting you in person. That was very comfortable for me when we were walking around. I’ve been photographed a couple of times before, and I find the experience enjoyable. I like being directed, and the whole experience is interesting. It makes you appreciate and look closely at your surroundings. Kind of just thinking, “How does this look, and how will it look?”
I found it very interesting, intriguing, and appreciated the creative angle. Thinking about the place that I was in. In New York as well, you have so much going on, and everything’s so busy. You’re walking around, and sometimes you don’t slow down to look around you. And to think about what’s going on and appreciate what you see. This interaction that we had was a nice way of taking one of those moments and just enjoying it for the sake of what it was.
Paul: It definitely slows things down because we’re pulling instances a fraction of a second. I don’t think I’ve ever been in Hell’s Kitchen before. I sometimes need to warm up people, and sometimes it’s a little bit of both. It’s more so on me connecting with a person in some way. Sometimes that takes more time, and sometimes you just don’t have that time.
The next photo that I want to talk about is the photo of you on the couch. That sets up the rest of the work for the inside. I knew I needed to have a classic portrait of you that informs everything else that’s going on. That might’ve been the first photo I took of you on there, and I immediately landed on something that would work. You felt very comfortable there.
Carl: Yeah, I was feeling very interested and part of the creative process that you were going through. I was appreciating just being part of that. I enjoyed taking your direction and having fun with it. In general, I’ve come to be okay and comfortable in my body and with other people seeing it. Particularly in the context of, you know, the pride week, this was a time when I was feeling very at ease with myself.
Carl: That also played in with our session in me coming in and feeling excited and engaged with what was going on. So I think that just immediately put me kind of at ease, which I agree with. I just went onto the couch and was enjoying what we were doing immediately.
Paul: I don’t like to give a lot of direction. Every person and every interaction is different. What I found interesting is that you worked well with what I was trying to achieve. The next image that I want to talk about is the first one where my foot is on your face. That was one where it’s something I would’ve never thought about creating that image, but I didn’t create it. It just happened. I’m curious what you think about that. It also just shows how fluid this collaboration and interaction was. It just flowed; you’re looking at the camera. It’s very strong. You’re very connected and present.
Carl: Again, having fun. I actually really like this photo because it captures that feeling of excitement and enjoyment that I was having and connecting with you. Also just enjoying my kinky side as well. I think that comes through here as well as playfulness. This happened just very organically, which I also really like how we managed to capture that in the shot as well.
Paul: So the next image that I want to talk about is the three-quarter profile of you where you’re looking into the light, and it’s the only time that we technically were shooting the shadow side of you. I remember the light being interesting.
Paul: I knew what I needed to get, but arriving there was challenging just because the frame is tight. I know I didn’t let you move outside of that. It’s just a classic portrait.
Carl: I love it, the color, the light; it just makes me see myself in quite a different way that I wouldn’t normally see myself. In a way, it’s kind of alien to me. It doesn’t feel like, “Oh, that’s what I look like.”
I really enjoy it. I look at that like, “Oh wow.” That is a really beautiful moment captured there and all the elements. Your patience getting through and capturing that moment that you wanted was absolutely worth it.
Paul: So we had good light coming in. I also had lighting material on the window, my favorite diffusion material. That sets our world up in terms of the look.
Paul: I’ll start off by saying that you do have a great backside, respectfully. Something that I’ve learned when I’m shooting more of this work, shooting someone’s backside, is that it’s very easy to make that not interesting.
Carl: I also just really enjoy, as you mentioned, the contrast between the pink and the green. I think it adds to that playfulness as well. Again, views that you don’t normally see of yourself. I think this is a good example of that as well. The way that the light is catching the different contours in my body. It also adds an interesting element of movement to it too.
Paul: The last pieces that I want to talk about are the photos where you’re licking my feet. Again, these weren’t planned. I had mentioned to you that the photos that could be seen as more sexual in my head, I thought that they would be separated. That comes from, “How can I show these?” because I want to show editors and I want to show different people, different curators. Different people will see this, and they’re not all gay or queer people, and their interests aren’t always the same as mine.
Paul: Photographs have to do a number of things that serve different ideas and different communities. After I received some feedback from artists, people were saying those were the ones that they connected to the most. How intimate they were just got me thinking. I started doing just research on very influential queer photographers and was just updating my historical knowledge just on the medium of queer photography.
Then it just led me back into, “Oh, these are really beautiful and nice.” If something is sexual, I don’t think it needs to be censored from me, the creator. I had a different understanding from them. Because initially, I was unsure how I would even handle them. This happened organically. It was not a concept or idea I originally thought of.
Carl: I also just love them. This feeling of just being lost in the moment here. I clearly was in that at this time as well. For me, this just feels organic, but also vulnerable as well. I’m not paying attention to what you’re doing in this case. I am in my own little world, and that’s not something I’m used to being captured in an image. There’s a certain kind of vulnerability that I’m feeling in here, but also just kind of joy in what I’m doing. You’re right, like they are very kind of like sexual and intimate. I think that adds to it as well in making them feel kind of special to me.
Then there are other little details that I really like. Obviously what I’m doing is what I enjoy. I think in one of the shots in particular, the texture of my chest hair looks interesting to me. Actually, I don’t even focus so much on me licking your feet as so much as looking at the hair on my chest. I think that was kind of interesting for me in terms of the kind of the composition. I just really enjoy them. I feel like every time I look at them, I see a different aspect to them and feel a little bit of a different feeling about them as well.
Paul: Something that you got me thinking about is just being open to anything happening. These special and magical moments can happen. For me, that’s exciting. We didn’t plan a lot of this, and I think that’s how some of the more interesting work was made. I wanted to say thank you for this conversation. I look forward to showing these.
Carl: Thanks. Yeah, likewise. I had such a great time doing this with you. I’m glad that something so beautiful, intimate, and personal came out of it. I think they’re all a joy to see. So thank you.
This conversation has been edited and condensed.
Gay Tv 2025